What do Urban Roots London and the top gymnasts in the world have in common? Strength in flexibility! Join host Mariam Waliji as she chats with Jacob Damstra on this latest episode of Pollinating Purpose. Over the course of the show Jacobs shares some of the journey of Urban Roots London and how the organization uses a social enterprise approach in supporting their nonprofit model, alongside insights on how to navigate regulatory requirements of starting a social purpose organization in your own community.
This episode features Jacob Damstra, Director of Urban Roots London, as this month's guest. Listen in as Jacob shares some of the narrative of the organization and to learn about how they use a social enterprise model to support their nonprofit structure. We also chat about navigating and moving beyond regulatory barriers with the lens of Jacob’s legal expertise and experience, and some of the places you can look to get support understanding these structures. Not even sure where to begin thinking about those regulations and bylaws? Well you're in luck - we talk about that too.
Resources
Music
Intro and background music written and performed by the wonderful Jessica O'Neil.
Find her as Yessica Woahneil on music-streaming platforms.
Sponsors
This podcast is made possible in-part through the generous in-kind sponsorship of Rogers TV London and financial contributions of Libro Credit Union.
38:43
SPEAKERS
Jacob, Mariam
00:00
Music: Pollinating purpose a caring approach to business theme music by Jessica O'Neil
Mariam 00:27
I think that is our deepest longing to belong to each other and to belong to this larger community of life. And to me tending to that notion of garden and all it scales is a powerful way to belong. A quote by the incomparable Robin Wall Kimmerer. Welcome to Pollinating Purpose: A caring approach to business. I am your host and avid tree climber Mariam Waliji. I also am the Social Enterprise Program Manager and coach here at Pillar Nonprofit Network. For those of you who are new here, Pollinating Purpose is a show all about supporting organizations who seek to have social impact in the work that they do. Whether nonprofit, for profit or a grassroots organization, you'll learn key considerations to starting or growing your social-purpose business in a long-term and sustainable way. Alongside this learning, you'll also hear from guests who are doing similar work in their own communities. Today, I am absolutely thrilled to be welcoming Jacob Damstra from Urban Roots London as one of our guests. Jacob is a director with Urban Roots London, a not for profit farm, here, revitalizing underused land in the City of London through agriculture, community connection and education. Jacob has been with Urban Roots in January of 2018, and oversaw the organization's creation and launch of its community composting program in 2019. In his day job, Jacob is a regulatory litigation and appeals lawyer at Learners LLP, practicing health, environmental and municipal law in administrative tribunals and courts. Among other work key advisors, nonprofits, businesses, agricultural clients, and land land owners regarding environmental, municipal and regulatory issues, land use planning, and contractual disputes. When not working with clients, or Urban Roots London, Jacob is either at home in his garden or orchard with his wife Teal or at a sports events with one of his four sons. All of this is true and so is the fact that I had the distinct honour and pleasure of working alongside Jacob on the board of Urban Roots London. Thanks, Jacob for joining us.
Jacob 02:42
Thank you for having me.
Mariam 02:43
Yeah, I'm excited. You're here. I'm excited to talk about in a completely unbiased way. It is definitely biased. One of my favourite organizations. So yeah, if you could share a little bit more about Urban Roots and the work that we do, we can give some context to the folks at home.
Jacob 03:04
Absolutely. So Urban Roots London is a not for profit organization. Thats aim is to revitalize underused land within city limits, through agriculture, by growing high quality, organically-grown produce, and distributing it locally in our equitable model, which I'm sure we'll talk about more. But more than that, its intent is to reorient people to how we think about where our food comes from, how its produced, and how its distributed on a hyperlocal scale.
Mariam 03:38
Yeah, thank you. So, you know, you mentioned this equitable model. So Urban Roots London uses a model of thirds principle in not only the food distribution, but kind of it's a guiding principle for the organization. So can you share a little bit about what inspired that model?
Jacob 03:57
Absolutely. So after the the founders of the organization...
Mariam 04:04
As with all things and all social impact organizations, Urban Roots London did not pop out of the ground as a fully formed and thriving birch tree, or other impressive plant. It started out as a little seedling of a grassroots organization founded by Richie Bloomfield, Heather Bracken, Graham Bracken, and Jeremy Horrell. These four came together with varied backgrounds and skills but a common desire to address issues of land use and food access in the City of London. While the organization now has a board of directors, full time staff, seasonal staff, volunteers extraordinaire and incredible partnerships. It sure didn't start that way. It's taken years, a lot of support, mistakes and learning and continual work to get Urban Roots London to where it is now. And where it wants to grow...go...you get it.
Jacob 04:59
I proved in the first season in 2017, that they could grow food. The next question was, now what? And so they they approached me and I was very grateful to be approached early on and join the board and sit in a boardroom and think about what this organization could do beyond just growing and donating food, which led us to have a number of lengthy conversations about different models that could work on a social enterprise approach as opposed to a pure charitable approach or a pure for profit business approach. And where we landed was this model, there's equitable model, model of thirds, in which we grow. Every row of food that we grow, 1/3 is donated right off the top. And it's not the worst looking third, or the raggedy third that's leftover at the end, it's it's the best third. And it's donated to community partners who have distribution streams already set up.
Mariam 06:04
Again, completely biased here. But one of my favourite parts of Urban Roots is the knowledge and understanding that we're not always the best people for certain jobs. We work with incredible organizations such as Crouch Neighbourhood Resource Center, LUSO Community Services, Queer Events London - just to name a few - who know the communities they serve best. They have the frontline access and relationships. They understand their community's needs and wants and are well positioned to be regularly connected to them. It simply doesn't make sense for Urban Roots to try and step into spaces where the work is already being done. Rather, we can partner with organizations to fulfill a need that they can share with us. I think this really highlights such an important part of the social enterprise model. No one organization can be all things or do all things. An approach of collaboration allows for each social impact organization to really narrow in on their strengths, and rely on the support of other people in the ecosystem to achieve outcomes and priorities.
Jacob 07:12
To allow for people that wouldn't otherwise have access to beautiful, nutritious food to have that option. The next third, is sold at affordable are accessible rates to other community partners or members of the neighbourhood. And so they're accessing again, this organically grown produce for about half the price of what you would pay on the organics isle in the supermarket. And then the final third to support our ability to do those other those other tranches is sold at market rates, competitive market rates, to partners that are able to to access the produce at full price like restaurants, grocers, or individuals who attend the markets and choose to pay that full price. And we thought that that was important, because as I said, it wasn't just about growing food and donating it, it was about doing it in a sustainable way. That could reimagine the way that we think about how food is produced and distributed and consumed in our community.
Mariam 08:19
Yeah, thank you. For me, personally, you know, the journey of joining Urban Roots from volunteering with the organization to becoming a member of the board has really helped mold my understanding of social enterprise as a concept, which is really cool, because here I am now. And yeah, I remember some of those early conversations around, you know, difficulties in funding and how the funding priorities shift based on you know, what the current climate landscape is politically. And there's such a dependence on that. And that's why we often see food-based organizations who, you know, aren't able to sustain long term or on an exclusively charitable model, because that funding isn't necessarily always reliable. So this, you know, concept of being able to self finance, the donation model is was something that was really intriguing to me when I joined.
Jacob 09:12
Yeah, and it creates a buffer, right, it creates a buffer against uncertainty of funding. So we're able to access funding because of the for purpose or the the community engaged model. But we're also able to sustain if that funding doesn't come through in the way that we're anticipating.
Mariam 09:30
And that friends is the beauty of social enterprise, that shift to the middle as a callback to Episode One. Now, being a not for profit with a social enterprise model isn't the perfect solution for everyone or every organization, but it does give certain flexibilities to apply for some funding while also being able to generate income, if that model makes sense for your organization.
Jacob 09:56
And that's also, as you said, gone beyond just the growing and distributing of food. And it's allowed us to branch out in different ways, and apply that same model to education, and of offering programming that provides for agricultural education to youth or to adults, in a way that we can do it in the same in the saee distribution, where some people are able to pay, some people are able to pay less than what you might otherwise be able to obtain for that educational service. And some just receive it as as a donation. Or we've branched out in the last couple of years to grow seedlings at the beginning of each year for our own farm, but to grow more than we need, so that, again, people can access seedlings, either other social enterprises or not for profits, for their own purposes, businesses that want to grow food, or individuals in their backyard. And that, again, allows us to have a little bit of an income stream to buffer against the need for constantly seeking funding from third parties or government entities.
Mariam 11:04
Yeah, thank you. So, you know, we've kind of touched on this a little bit already. But how does the social enterprise model fit into the long term planning and viability of the organization? And you know, beyond that, what are some of the benefits of this kind of model for specifically a nonprofit? And, you know, what are some of the barriers as well.
Jacob 11:28
So the way that I think about social enterprise, and I'm sure that it might differ from others is just it's a flexible way of thinking about operating an organization.
Mariam 11:40
See, flexible, I didn't even tell him to say that.
Jacob 11:45
And it allows you to think both...the words are instructive. Think both about the social impact that you're having. But also think about it as an enterprise as something that can be self sustaining, and should intend to be and aim to be self sustaining. And so by focusing always first on what is the social impact that we're having, and how can we have the best and most, most impactful mark in our community that really steers the ship in terms of, you know, now how are we going to put the pieces in place on the enterprise side to support that. And going back to the flexibility piece, it allows you, as I said, to access funding that you couldn't as a business, but it also allows you to have that, that self sustainability that you couldn't, as a purely charitable organization. So it's this hybrid, this middle ground...
Mariam 12:42
See, again, shift to the middle.
Jacob 12:46
...that, at least when I started with the organization, was really sort of a new concept to me. And I think it was sort of gaining some legs as a concept in the community. And there was more and more interest in different models of organizations and how they could incorporate these two ideas of social impact and being enterprising in the sense of earning money in order to sustain that social impact.
Mariam 13:15
Yeah, totally. And that's where Pillar can come in. Before I joined the Urban Roots Board, and before I joined the Pillar team, Urban Roots London participated in the Libro Social Enterprise Incubator. The Incubator program is one of the many social enterprise resources Pillar Nonprofit Network offers this a wee little podcast to being another. The incubator is funded by our friends over at Libro Credit Union and aims to help folks really understand their mission of long lasting social impact, while using a robust business model and business plan as their roadmap to enacting that change. I like to suggest using a business plan as the roadmap as it allows folks to think systematically about the impact being created by their work, I try and present the plan as a way to narrow in on what the focus and strategy of your work is. Develop a rigorous method for impact measurement that allows you to ensure that the people that you're supporting are receiving what they need and what they're asking for. And also understanding how to make your organization financially sustainable to allow that impact to have long term effects. Rather than say, like a drop in, drop out method. I believe that the value of a business plan isn't necessarily in the plan itself in this context, but rather the process of really going through and understanding all of the aspects of the work that you're doing. And the both positive and potentially negative impacts of that work. And, yeah, it's just it allows us to have that flexibility and have that you know, impact model at the Core be kind of like informing some of the decision making that we do as a board.
Jacob 15:05
Exactly. And it grounds every discussion, as opposed to every discussion being about the bottom line, or the the Excel spreadsheets with the numbers on it. It's always starting with what are we doing to have an impact in our community? How can we expand? How can we gain more expertise or mastery in our current domain? And then and build on that?
Mariam 15:31
Okay. Now, this isn't to say that the finances aren't important. They sure as heck are. An organization wanting to create long-term impact needs to be around long term, which means having the financial resources to fund the operations of the work. What we're trying to get at here is that the bottom line - the financial gain - that isn't the goal. Instead, it's a tool. An important tool, but a tool to achieve those impact priorities your organization has.
Mariam
And, you know, knowing that there are many difficulties in you know, trying to break the mold and do something new. Can you speak to particularly that with your background on a regulatory perspective, like some of the challenges that we've faced, yeah, and trying to do things differently?
Jacob 16:26
One of the most, I think, difficult, but also fulfilling challenges with an organization like Urban Roots London, like other social enterprises that are doing things differently, is educating the community, both our stakeholders, our customers, our clients, but also the government entities that regulate businesses, organizations, and in particular agricultural organizations, on what we're doing and why, and then sort of teaching them how to fit what they see as a square peg into a round hole, or vice versa. And so it's really breaking down the intention behind the different regulations, or municipal bylaws that might apply. And working with the regulatory folks, the staff at the City of London, or the ministry officials at the Ministry of Environment to have a conversation around. This is what we're doing. This is why and here's how we think it fits within the currently existing model, when you just you tilt your head a little bit and look at it slightly differently. Because the reality is with these social enterprises that are doing things in a way that people haven't thought of before, that they haven't seen before, it creates an instinctive: we haven't seen that, so you can't do that. And, and the challenges will be different for every organization. But they'll still be there. And it's important, I think, to to think about those proactively, and not to get caught on your back foot saying, oh, I didn't know this was going to be a problem. But to actually investigate what is the regulatory regime in which I'm intending to operate that this organization is, is aiming to, to do its work in and then having those conversations?
Mariam 18:23
Okay, so you might be thinking to yourself, but I don't even know what I don't know, how can I be proactive if I can't even figure out the regulatory requirements or the bylaws. I hear ya pal, it is a tricky thing to navigate. And frankly, some things are municipal, some regulations are provincial, some might even be federal, depending on the type of work that you're doing. And if you're trying to do things differently, there isn't going to be some easy breezy checklist to go through. My best suggestion is to try and talk to people. It might be putting yourself outside of your comfort zone a little bit, but hop on your favourite internet browser and see if there's any organizations doing similar-ish work and shoot them an email. The worst thing that can happen is they don't respond, right? We talk about this a little bit more later, but you can also try reaching out to various city official organizations. For example, the City of London has a business hub, that can offer some insights on regulatory requirements, things like that. And you can also reach out to organizations like Pillar, while we might not have all the answers, we're pretty well connected. Usually we can offer some suggestions of what direction to head in to find the answers that you're looking for.
Jacob 19:44
And two great examples come to mind. The first is literally at its core of what we do is growing and distributing food in the city. And so when you think about the traditional model of agriculture, it's in the rural landscape, it's outside of cities, it's, it's grown out there, and it's shipped somewhere, and it's processed, and it's brought in here. We're totally flipping that on its head. And we're saying, We're gonna grow right here on this piece of land that wouldn't otherwise be used. And we're going to invite people to this space to commune and connect with their food as they purchase it. But municipal bylaws don't recognize that as a legitimate way of using land. So we needed to work with city staff to say, okay, what's the, what's the block? And how do we get around it? Or how do we remove it entirely. And that was done. And we were able to get a zoning amendment through the planning application process, which, you know, had we not worked proactively with the city could have turned into a, you're not allowed to do this, and a combative approach, as opposed to a cooperative approach from the outset. And that came up again, a couple of years into our organization, getting off its feet. And as we started to build on the things that we were doing, we looked around and saw in London that there wasn't a green bin program, there was nowhere for people to compost. And we thought, well, we have a farm, we need compost to amend our soil in an organic way in a way that sustains the earth that we're taking from. And we just can't produce enough on our own. And we also don't want to keep buying this product. And people are throwing away their kitchen scraps, their waste their material that could easily be converted into a usable product. And so we thought, why don't we invite people to bring that material here, when they're coming to pick up their vegetables, when they're coming to volunteer when they're coming for an education session. But of course, you know, we stopped having the experience that we did with the city and the planning and the zoning, and to talk to the city staff and to talk to Ministry of Environment officials that regulate waste management, about how this would work and how this would fit. And, of course, it didn't fit the normal model. Because waste is again, taken from here somewhere else away from sight, and it's processed or put into landfill. And just, it's separate. And our idea is that this is the lifecycle of food, and it's integral and it's integrated. So we we ultimately worked with them and found, I wouldn't say a loophole, but found a way to pitch the program in a way that fit. But we're careful to make sure that we don't go beyond what's permissible. And conversations often arise about selling this product that we're now creating. And that just doesn't work within the current model. And if we needed to do that for financial reasons, or it was really a great opportunity, then we could look to change the model. But that was you know, that was an experience, again, where we really needed to change the way people thought about what we were planning on doing.
Mariam 23:06
Yeah, totally. I think that's such an important lesson of, you know, you want to do something that hasn't been done before, which is often how we get progress and change. And you know, to feel or hear or see like, that's not possible, like it's okay to ask why not? It's okay to question like, how can we like, how can it be possible? Because sometimes it's just yeah, it is how it is. And that's, you know, sometimes just how processes remain the same. But a little innovation can go a long way.
Mariam
One of the alternate titles for this podcast was "Rebel with a cause". And I think this point kind of highlights that mentality. It's okay, and I might even say... important, to question the status quo. As that guy Newton once said, "an object in motion remains in motion at constant speed. And in a straight line, unless acted on by an unbalanced force." Be that unbalanced force, baby! Change doesn't happen without a little bit of friction, or even a lot of friction. Ask those questions and find solutions to create the change that you want to see.
Jacob 24:26
Absolutely. And I think that what's important to that conversation is understanding and investigating, what's the intention? What's the intention of this regulation, this bylaw, this way of doing things? Because when you understand that, you might be able to pitch the fact that what you're planning on doing slightly differently, actually fits that intention. And you just have to, as I said, tilt your head, look at it from a slightly different angle and realize this works. And we just need to make it work as opposed to starting from the point of this doesn't work and it can't work?
Mariam 25:00
Yeah, yeah, because I feel like I remember when I first joined, there was either very limited or potentially no kind of information about urban farming in the city, there was a lot about community gardens, which is a very different model. So yeah, I remember folks on the board, um, Jeremy, you know, really working alongside the city of like, okay, how can we build an urban agricultural plan into the city of London's plan? And, you know, we now have Urban Roots is not the only urban farm in London, which is great, that's amazing.
Jacob 25:37
And the city has an urban agriculture strategy built into its planning documents and contemplated in the official plan, The London plan, about using underused space for agriculture, but allowing for innovative models of growing and distributing food. Because I think that we, I don't want to be immodest. But I think that we set the stage, and we did it in a way that was cooperative and respectful of the existing process and the existing regime. It's tempting to tear it down and rebuild, but working within the model and changing it and evolving it, I think is is equally productive. And certainly, you know, doesn't rub people the wrong way.
Mariam 26:22
I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the fact that Urban Roots London has a lot of privilege in being able to navigate the systems in the way that we do. In being able to collaborate and coordinate with the necessary organizations to get to the outcomes we wanted and needed. The reality is that this isn't available to everyone. If that's the situation you find yourself in, I suggest reaching out to folks, having conversations and trying to get creative, see how you might be able to navigate these barriers while still maintaining the work that you do. Remember, be that opposing force.
Mariam
So I'm going to deviate from the questions that I sent you. So bear with me. But so we obviously have like, a real privilege of having you on the board who understands these regulations, who understands this landscape in in a way that like, I certainly don't. So, you know, if someone who's listening, who's watching who, you know, is in a similar position of wanting to do something different, but isn't a lawyer, you know, how would you suggest they try and find this information? Like, what could you suggest, as a means to just sort of navigate this system and learn more about it? So they can advocate for the changes they want to make?
Jacob 27:55
So it's obviously going to...classical answer it's going to depend, right? No, it's gonna depend on the circumstances, it's going to depend on the industry or the, the space in which this this person this organization is operating or wanting to, to break into. But I think that the, like, the steps are going to be the same. It's, it's talking to the people who are operating in that space, and knowing what they're doing. Understanding the regulations, the bylaws, the policies that apply that they're needing to comply with, and then trying to talk to the people that are responsible for enforcing those current rules, and understanding the intention of them and just having a conversation about, you know, I've done my homework, I've learned that this is how things have historically worked. Why, right, and asking why is so important. It's, it's tempting to say, well, that that's not fair. Or it shouldn't be that way. Or, you know, just because that's the way you've always done, it doesn't mean that's the way you should do it. Those are all, you know, potentially valid. But starting with why, and starting to understand the intention, or the purpose of the regulatory regime is so important. Because as I said, then it allows you to maybe not change what you're doing, but change the way you're talking about what you're doing change the way that you're educating those enforcement officials or the people that are interpreting those pilot policies as to how what you're doing fits, not necessarily with the black and white wording, but with the intention, it fits with the why and I don't think you have to be a lawyer to do that. It's just about listening and understanding and going beyond what's on the page going beyond what's in the rulebook. And having those conversations about how this works, why this is in place, so that we can, so that this organization, this person can then either slightly change the way that they're doing what they want to do in order to fit or to try to change the way that these people are thinking about the way they enforce or interpret the rules that are in place.
Mariam 30:13
Yeah, that's a good point. A little plug for the City of London's Business Hub. So, you know, through coaching and with chatting with folks who are starting things, yeah, those questions on like, where do I even find out what sort of regulatory things are required? And things like that, and the City of London does have, it's called the City of London Business Hub, you can reach out to them. And from my experience of chatting with folks, they're like, Yeah, send them an email, you know, ask, let them know what you're interested in. And they can give you some guidelines on what sort of things to be thinking about what sort of licenses you need to be considering. And that's just such a helpful place to start to just yeah, be aware, and try and be as informed as possible. So when you go into these conversations, you, you feel confident.
Jacob 31:03
for sure, yeah. And talking to the people, they're talking to people at the London Chamber of Commerce, if the the enterprise is more business focused, talking to people at Pillar Nonprofit Network, if it's more not for profit oriented, and just learning what people are already doing in this space, to then figure out how you're going to fit and how you're going to navigate that regime.
Mariam 31:24
And I think just talking to people who are doing similar work, you know, I think we have folks who come to us and like, hey, we want to start something similar. How do we do that? And we're always happy to share and I think that's such an important element of the community piece of the work that we do is, yeah, we recognize that we can't do it all. So let's all kind of work together to fill the gaps that that makes sense for us to fill. And for the most part, people want to see others succeed.
Jacob 31:54
Exactly, yeah, a rising tide raises all ships and all that good stuff. And that was one of the things that we were very intentional about right from the outset, in defining the mission defining the scope of what Urban Roots was going to do. It wasn't just about growing and distributing food, it was also about creating agricultural opportunities for employment, for education, for engagement with food production and distribution, but also to create a self sustaining model to germinate to new sites, either through our organization or others by sharing institutional knowledge. And we've tried to be within the reasonable limits of our time and our capacity as open a book as possible for others to learn from and to take some of what we're doing that works and use it somewhere else. Or, as he said, to partner with organizations that are doing something that's, that's analogous or that it's on a parallel track, or that it that it overlaps or intersects with what we're doing so that we can all amplify each other's impact and role.
Mariam 33:00
Collaboration over competition, often when I talk about doing the stakeholder analysis, which is the process of looking around and understanding who and which organizations are doing similar work to you, I often encourage folks to think about how you are similar to these other groups, and also what gaps you see in their work. And that's not to say that these gaps are a negative or that it's coming from a competitive mindset. But rather, it's going back to that idea that no one organization can be all things or do all things. So how can we approach this in a way of collaboration, where we all fulfill roles in this ecosystem to offer well rounded support to the communities that we're trying to serve?
Mariam
Perfect, thank you. And, you know, as we're kind of wrapping up our time together a little bit, can you share more about, you know, where folks can find out more about Urban Roots, the work that we're doing, how they can get involved, we're always happy to have folks on the farm.
Jacob 34:02
Yeah, that's the best part about the organization is that it's, it's an open door policy really is anybody who wants to come out, we want them out to learn what we're doing to get their hands dirty to, to engage with that, that that food production and the model that we're operating on. The best place I think the central hub is is the website, urbanrootslondon.ca. They're all of our social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, it's all linked. And you can follow us on any of those platforms. And if you want to get involved, there's a volunteer tab right on the web page, click it, send an email, send a note, learn, you know, how you can get involved and it's not just about you know, pulling weeds or planting vegetables it could be offering you know, marketing services or communications or education or planning events or any of these different ways that Urban Roots is engaging with the community. We want people who are excited to join in and become part of the fun.
Mariam 35:04
So I have one more question. It's one that we like to ask everyone to finish things off. Can you share one thing that is bringing you joy right now can be anything you want, just off the top of your head.
Jacob 35:17
I think that the best example is the most recent was my five year old, having disappeared this morning while I was trying to get ready to leave, and coming back in from outside carrying a zucchini from our garden with the biggest smile on his face and the most pride that you could imagine. And just like saying, like, I got a zucchini, and just seeing that, that love of growing food and engaging with where food comes from in the next generation. You know, that fills my heart and it makes me feel like we're you know, we're moving in the right direction.
Mariam 35:52
Awesome. Thank you so much, Jacob, for being here. It's always lovely to chat with you. And it's really fun to be able to talk to you in a different context than our regular Sunday board meetings.
Jacob 36:03
It's been a pleasure.
Mariam 36:03
Yeah, thank you for being here. I obviously love the work that you're doing. And yeah, I'm thrilled that we got to share it with folks.
Jacob 36:12
Thank you.
Mariam 36:13
Thank you again to Jacob Damstra from Urban Roots London for joining us today. This organization is one that is near and dear to my heart. And I'm so glad we got to chat a little bit about it and learn some more about those regulatory things that, frankly, are hard to grab, like wrap your head around. So I'm glad that Jacob was able to offer some insight into there too. And so fun fact, Urban Roots London actually participated in the Libro Social Enterprise Incubator that is run by Pillar Nonprofit, and I am the facilitator for so yeah, part of that program is an opportunity to learn some of these things like you know, how, what are some of the regulatory things you need to be thinking about how do you plan for your activities. And we also talked about, you know, the financial planning side of things, the market research side of things, and the impact side of things, really talking about how to make that social impact the core of the decision making that you do. So, at our early stages, Urban Roots actually participated in that program. And we were unable to get into it too much with Jacob. But if you are interested in learning more about the Libro of Social Enterprise Incubator, and the ways in which we can offer social enterprise support, please visit us at pillarnonprofit.ca/socialenterprise. You can either you know find out some information there there are some resources linked including the link to the City of London Business Hub, as well as fill out an intake form if you'd like to connect directly with our team to ask some questions or just find out some information. Thank you so much for joining us here on Pollinating Purpose. Again, I am your host, your guide your business bud, Mariam Waliji and I am so so thrilled that you're here. Thanks.